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American Anthem and Protest

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  • Originally posted by ralphmtsu View Post
    You do know that inner-city issues are those cities that have Democrats as mayors. They cater to their inner-city low-life with social programs and wasted $$$. To be honest, it is institutionalized slavery. The Democrats have made most of those living in inner cities dependent on the government for their subsistence-- food stamps, public housing, etc. It is all a scam to keep the Democrats winning as mayors. They could care less about those in the inner city.
    Yes, it's an issue that nobody ever wants to bring up. For example, Baltimore has had democrats as mayors for years. And mayors are in charge of bringing the great equalizer for class mobility to areas they govern....jobs. Baltimore was once one of the biggest industrialized cities in the world. It quietly rotted away, became infiltrated with drugs, and has a population of people that earn no high school diploma, incarceration rates are sky-high, and have no economic opportunity beyond a minimum wage job. The decay was gradual and the answer for disadvantaged individuals is getting what little money they could from the government with money the government is borrowing. This has also occurred in rural areas as well where towns that were built on manufacturing disappeared. The inhabits there are the children of those workers who did not take advantage of education, others earned a college degree, and then moved to start a career. And now, a college degree barely does anything for you. Too many students get degrees where there are no jobs and are drowning in accrued debt.


    If you research the democratic party, it changed drastically in 1975 to being more progressive and has lead to where it is today with identity politics despite a seedy history prior to 1975 locked away in a closet. And yes, relying on the government has never been efficient or good. To me, government should be limited and it's only function is to protect individual liberties. Does this mean kneeling is protected by our government? Yes. If free speech is regulated, we have lost everything this country was built on. But in reality, people demonstrate their opinion with economics. If someone makes a speech and it is not of popular opinion or acceptable, you get hurt with less economic opportunities. I bet the NFL will demonstrate revenue loss and this does not bode well for television contract negotiations.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Lewdog View Post
      I quit reading after you said free speech is only a function of the government. Freedom is what this entire country was founded upon. /end story.
      Then you missed the part where I at least partly agreed with you that the players have the "freedom" to kneel.

      I thought I made a rational post that might be able to get my point across. I'm disappointed you chose not to consider my points. I will, however, continue to completely read your responses.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Halftime View Post
        Then you missed the part where I at least partly agreed with you that the players have the "freedom" to kneel.

        I thought I made a rational post that might be able to get my point across. I'm disappointed you chose not to consider my points. I will, however, continue to completely read your responses.
        I quit reading it because your post was based on something that isn't true. Freedom of speech and to protest is not something that is given to citizens by the government. It is a fundamental right that the U.S. ideology is based on. And yes privately held companies have the right to fire a person if their use of freedom of speech hinders their ability to perform their job, or if the company doesn't agree with the message, but the freedom also allows NFL owners the right to allow the players to protest. And that's what they are doing, and I agree with them in allowing it. Why? Because the players have to follow so many rules within the NFL, and they are held to a high standard in so many aspects to protect the 'shield' and often do a crazy amount of things for charities, foundations, and their community. With that said, they understand there is a consequence for everything, and it is well within the rights of fans who don't agree with their actions to quit following the teams or buying merchandise.

        Now something I saw a gentleman say tonight on MSNBC makes a lot of sense. To all the people that argue that players, coaches, and owners should keep politics out of the NFL, well they should remember, having the military at games and playing the national anthem has nothing to do with football either, and is political. I love my country, and I hold high respect for anyone that has served in the military. I had two grandfathers that served, one in the Korean War. I had an uncle in the Air Force, an uncle in the Navy, and my father was in the Army and stationed at Fort Richardson Alaska. Another uncle tried to enlist but was turned down because of having flat feet. I enlisted and went to Parris Island for the Marines but ended up with a medical discharge after getting an extremely bad case of pneumonia that went misdiagnosed for 3 weeks. I have spoken to many veterans who have said they don't feel disrespected by the players kneeling, and I've seen many that are... but isn't that the point of a protest? To get people talking? And now many people that had no idea what Kaepernick was even protesting, are now becoming part of the conversation and asking why, which is bringing attention to the point of inequality in the criminal justice system.

        What is sad, is that Trump has repeatedly made comments in order to divide our country, and many times when he does this, he is drawing attention away while he and Congress sneak by items without them getting much media attention.

        Comment


        • This whole controversy is stupid on all sides, in my opinion. A few points:

          1) While the players have the constitutional right to protest and to not stand during the national anthem, that only means that the government can not take away their constitutional right to do so. Employers, however, are free to suspend or fire workers for such actions (or at least in some states).

          2) Not all veterans share the same views on the subject. I've heard some that are for the players exercising their freedom of speech, some who are vehemently against any action that is viewed as disrespectful to the flag and, by extension, to the members of our military, and those who don't really care one way or the other. I'd say the majority of veterans are opposed to the protests, but I haven't seen any data to say for sure.

          3) We've got a lot bigger issues to worry about right now (North Korea, hurricane relief, healthcare, tax reform).

          4) With the exception of the Superbowl and a perhaps a few other notable games, NFL teams stayed in the locker room until after the national anthem for primetime games up until 2009.
          Last edited by TD Bengals; 09-26-2017, 11:11 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Lewdog View Post
            I quit reading it because your post was based on something that isn't true. Freedom of speech and to protest is not something that is given to citizens by the government. It is a fundamental right that the U.S. ideology is based on.
            I don't think you understood what I was saying. I (at least on this part) agree with you.

            The 1st amendment and freedom of speech is, as you say "not something that is given to citizens by the government." The Bill of Rights does not give any rights to the people. It restricts the government's authority to take away those God-given rights.

            So I'm not sure what you think I said that wasn't true. It is a true statement that the first amendment only applies to the government restricting free speech. Every one of the original amendments spells out not what we are allowed to do, but instead says what the government is not allowed to do (restrict free speech, infringe on gun ownership, compel you to testify against yourself, etc.).

            If you had read my entire post you would have seen that I was saying the players have the right as citizens to protest. As employees, however, they only have the right to protest if their employers let them. I think, unless I completely missed it, that we agree on that.

            If I am misunderstanding what you mean when you say my post "was based on something that isn't true" then please explain in more detail what I said that isn't true.

            Comment


            • so now people cant even agree to agree when they agree?

              lol the man( both parties) has us so fired up they can continue to do nothing and we'll never notice.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TD Bengals View Post
                This whole controversy is stupid on all sides, in my opinion. A few points:

                1) While the players have the constitutional right to protest and to not stand during the national anthem, that only means that the government can not take away their constitutional right to do so. Employers, however, are free to suspend or fire workers for such actions (or at least in some states).

                2) Not all veterans share the same views on the subject. I've heard some that are for the players exercising their freedom of speech, some who are vehemently against any action that is viewed as disrespectful to the flag and, by extension, to the members of our military, and those who don't really care one way or the other. I'd say the majority of veterans are opposed to the protests, but I haven't seen any data to say for sure.

                3) We've got a lot bigger issues to worry about right now (North Korea, hurricane relief, healthcare, tax reform).

                4) With the exception of the Superbowl and a perhaps a few other notable games, NFL teams stayed in the locker room until after the national anthem for primetime games up until 2009.
                I think you nailed it, good sir
                potential targets for Bengals #1 overall pick in 2018:
                QB's- Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Josh Allen, Mason Rudolf
                OT's- Orlando Brown, Connor Williams, Mike McGlinchey

                Comment


                • Some of the same drunken hillbillies who are screaming the most (at games) about disrespect, are the same drunken hillbillies who drop their beer cups in the urinals and piss all over the toilet seats in the stalls, so that a young boy cannot even go to the bathroom.

                  Comment


                  • It is BS that on foreign soil on Sunday morning we had some players kneeling for the American National Anthem but they all stood in respect when they played God Save the Queen. That should not happen ever. It really reflects poorly on ouir country. Thanks NFL.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by LimaBengal View Post
                      Some of the same drunken hillbillies who are screaming the most (at games) about disrespect, are the same drunken hillbillies who drop their beer cups in the urinals and piss all over the toilet seats in the stalls, so that a young boy cannot even go to the bathroom.
                      I know I should not get re-involved in this morass of a thread...but, are you really this obtuse in real life?
                      "This game isn't worth it. The National Football League isn't worth it. There's golf to be played and tennis to be served up and other things to be done out there besides worryin' about a friggin' football game."----The prophet Sam Wyche

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Le Tigre View Post

                        I know I should not get re-involved in this morass of a thread...but, are you really this obtuse in real life?
                        As usual, I take your constant, personal insults with a grain of salt.

                        I just think it is ironic that at a venue where disrespect is the norm. for fans and players alike, that some players quietly kneeling is so infuriating to some.

                        I also find it ironic that some of the same people who are infuriated over the removal of statues of enemy soldiers, who tore down, burned or stomped into the mud, the American flag, defending them and all Rebel icons and battle flags as part and parcel of our heritage.....are now the same people who hate the players who silently kneel or lock arms during the national anthem.

                        I have also stated earlier in a thread that I believe that as an employee at work, players should agree to whatever behavior the employer demands. If an owner says "protest on your own nickle", that should be followed.

                        Comment


                        • Another veteran here. I will admit that at first it bothered me. Not so much because they disrespected the flag. I LOVE that we are all free to express our opinions and grievances peacefully and as we see fit. But just from a "selfishness" or "indulged" perspective, to have a black guy making millions complain about oppression, and have his boss allow that act when CLEARLY that's not in the organization's business interest, felt a bit absurd and tone deaf.

                          But then Kaepernick essentially gave up all of that; he wrecked his NFL career to make this point. THAT's how strongly he felt about it. He gave up more than maybe the entire consistent membership of this board makes per year. When I think about it that way, I actually gain respect for him. He knows he has that right, here in the US, because of the commitment of many honorable men before him; that's why rather than turn his back or act out aggressively, he discussed how to protest with G.I.s and ended up in the honoring, submissive stance of kneeling.

                          There IS a problem with police using excess force and being WAY WAY WAY too quick if not eager to shoot and otherwise apply massive violence, ESPECIALLY if they feel defied or disrespected (it's as if the entire police nation is made up of people as thin skinned and petulant as Trump!), and the problem is clearly amplified by racism in the form of fear, of different expectations and different valuation of minorities by police of all colors.

                          So keep talking about how that FLAG must be respected, but not even mention in your posts all the police violence. All the beatings and planted evidence and shooting people who are unarmed or complying or running away from a traffic stop... if that flag doesn't mean we're all equal, then exactly why WOULD minorities respect it? If it DOES mean we're equal, then why the hell is there more outrage amongst some of you about the FLAG being disrespected than murdered minorities and consequence-free cops who killed them? It isn't that FLAG which deserves respect; it's the ideals it allegedly represents. We all need to live up to those ideals. It takes a lot of bravery to live up to them. To hear people assail those beliefs and to defend their right to do so. Allegedly, this is the land of the brave. Stop whining like little cowards about the cloth flag and stand up to defend this HOME OF THE FREE. Before it's taken away to protect the cowards from their fear.
                          ///M
                          The most powerful letter in the alphabet

                          Comment


                          • I don't like the venue. I don't want politics mixed with my football. If you want to politic, do it on your own time and place. I want my football players to play football.

                            As for this protest, I don't even know what's being protested. Is it police violence? Is it Trump? It's so muddled. I don't care. We're all incredibly lucky to have been born here regardless of police or who the President is. We should show that appreciation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CinciFan View Post
                              Another veteran here. I will admit that at first it bothered me. Not so much because they disrespected the flag. I LOVE that we are all free to express our opinions and grievances peacefully and as we see fit. But just from a "selfishness" or "indulged" perspective, to have a black guy making millions complain about oppression, and have his boss allow that act when CLEARLY that's not in the organization's business interest, felt a bit absurd and tone deaf.

                              But then Kaepernick essentially gave up all of that; he wrecked his NFL career to make this point. THAT's how strongly he felt about it. He gave up more than maybe the entire consistent membership of this board makes per year. When I think about it that way, I actually gain respect for him. He knows he has that right, here in the US, because of the commitment of many honorable men before him; that's why rather than turn his back or act out aggressively, he discussed how to protest with G.I.s and ended up in the honoring, submissive stance of kneeling.

                              There IS a problem with police using excess force and being WAY WAY WAY too quick if not eager to shoot and otherwise apply massive violence, ESPECIALLY if they feel defied or disrespected (it's as if the entire police nation is made up of people as thin skinned and petulant as Trump!), and the problem is clearly amplified by racism in the form of fear, of different expectations and different valuation of minorities by police of all colors.

                              So keep talking about how that FLAG must be respected, but not even mention in your posts all the police violence. All the beatings and planted evidence and shooting people who are unarmed or complying or running away from a traffic stop... if that flag doesn't mean we're all equal, then exactly why WOULD minorities respect it? If it DOES mean we're equal, then why the hell is there more outrage amongst some of you about the FLAG being disrespected than murdered minorities and consequence-free cops who killed them? It isn't that FLAG which deserves respect; it's the ideals it allegedly represents. We all need to live up to those ideals. It takes a lot of bravery to live up to them. To hear people assail those beliefs and to defend their right to do so. Allegedly, this is the land of the brave. Stop whining like little cowards about the cloth flag and stand up to defend this HOME OF THE FREE. Before it's taken away to protect the cowards from their fear.
                              The flag represents the good in this country not the bad. It represents the heroes.
                              Your problem is and many others is you judge a group by the actions of a few. You have bad apples everywhere. How would you feel if I said that because a black/white man commits a murder, that I should judge all black/white men as murderers. And they all should suffer through the hands of the law.
                              Let me put it this way, most cops are great people, most black men are good people, most white men are good people. But you want to judge them all because of the few bad. The media in this country is pulling the wool over your eyes. They want the country to be divided so they can make billion off the suffering. Many of the cop killing have been innocent, some should have been found guilty and got off free. How come you don't protest the killing of cops? Because you want to turn your head away from that injustice while looking to defend another injustice.
                              The cops killing people isn't just white on black, it is black on black and white on white. But all you hear is when it is white cop and black man.
                              The bad cop thing goes back for over a century. it isn't new. And it has never targeted one race over the other. it was just bad cops on power trips. I;m white and suffered through the acts of a bad cop but also have had good cops help me get my car running when broke down and giving me a ride home when stranded. In fact years ago the police officer who helped me with getting my car running got shot and killed for no reason at all.


                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sea Ray View Post
                                I don't like the venue. I don't want politics mixed with my football. If you want to politic, do it on your own time and place. I want my football players to play football.

                                As for this protest, I don't even know what's being protested. Is it police violence? Is it Trump? It's so muddled. I don't care. We're all incredibly lucky to have been born here regardless of police or who the President is. We should show that appreciation.
                                Perfect post.

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