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  1. #1
    Sith Lord ralphmtsu's Avatar
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    OL Ramblings

    The OL went from one of the best to very suspect in the course of a year. Now, we have two linemen who are free agents. Oh, BTW, they just happen to be our two best OL. It is most likely that they will lose Zeitler could very well lose Whitworth. What makes the free agency situation so bad is that the Bengals will do the predicatable thing-- target the older vet while letting the younger, more productive player leave simply b/c they are unwilling to pay to keep him. If I were the Bengals, I would have tagged Zeitler and let Whit test the market. Why prioritize Whit over Zeitler? Of course, I'd want them both back, and I know there are other players who are priorities, but the OL simply can't lose 2 of its best players.

    Let's split the difference and say Whit resigns (which is probably the most realistic scenario). What does the OL look like? We know Ogbuey is a bust (at least on the right side). We essentially have no right tackle. Remember, we cycled Fisher and Winston in there quite often. With Zeitler gone, who is the right guard? Bodine is serviceable at best as center, and we could really look to upgrade there. Mangold anyone (even if for 1 or 2 years)? Boiling seems to be the only stable starter in my opinion at left guard. Which brings us to left tackle. Is it Whit? Is it Ogbuey (or however you spell his name).

    From my perspective, we have question marks at 4 of the 5 OL positions, and right guard is the biggest glaring hole we have. Here's what things could look like.

    LT Ogbuey
    LG Whit
    C Bodine or Mangold
    RG Boiling or some undetermined player
    RT Fisher

    None of that instills any confidence in me. What makes matters worse is that they most likely will keep Whit and move him to guard. Why? Anyone think Ogbuey could move inside to guard? I don't think he has the body type to play inside. All the more reason to consider him a bust.
    Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side!

  2. #2
    I think Cedric O's only chance is as a LT. The line's a mess. It's something they'd better put a plan together to address.

  3. #3
    Rumor is some teams are talking to Mangold and asking if he is willing to play guard... and we know for a fact the Bengals have talked to him, so maybe they are one of the teams that asked him. Could they be trying to replace Zeitler with Mangold and leave Bodine at center? I'm curious to see what Westerman can do to be quite honest with you. The best lineup would be Ogbuehi at LT, Whit at LG, Mangold at Center, Boling at RG, and Fisher at RT. They will resign Winston because he is cheap, and they already tendered TJ Johnson.

  4. #4
    spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphmtsu View Post
    All the more reason to consider him a bust.
    so the dude has never had an off-season with the team and has made just a handful of starts and he's already considered a bust?

    rough crowd.

    Dre Kirkpatrick got off to pretty much the same kind of start in his Bengal career, is he considered a "bust" as well?
    Last edited by spicoli; 03-07-2017 at 11:07 AM.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  5. #5
    Sith Lord ralphmtsu's Avatar
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    I never liked the Ced O pick to begin with. I thought it was a reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    so the dude has never had an off-season with the team and has made just a handful of starts and he's already considered a bust?

    rough crowd.

    Dre Kirkpatrick got off to pretty much the same kind of start in his Bengal career, is he considered a "bust" as well?
    Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side!

  6. #6
    Chargers are cutting DJ Fluker... he could be one of those reclamation projects that Alexander likes.

  7. #7
    And the Bengals tender TJ Johnson 1.8M/yr after 121 career offensive snaps over 3 years. To compare Eric Winston earned 1.1M for 282 snaps last year. This is for a guy who is a backup.. behind Bodine. To me this is a sign that they plan to go with Westerman at RG who had all of zero offensive snaps in 2016 and have TJ back up both spots. So we'll have Westerman and whoever starting the year on the right side. Hang on.. it's going to be a bumpy ride.

  8. #8
    This smells a lot like 'we will go with what we have' which, in Bengal Land usually stinks. There was some talk that they would sign Andre Smith as well. Regardless, looks like a mess going forward as I have zero confidence the brilliant OL coach can put together the young guys and the scrubs currently on the roster.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  9. #9
    Oh enough of this. People here were bellyaching in 2015 when they supposedly were one of the top lines around. The same people will bellyache regardless of what they do.

    And sorry, but lol @ this annual Whitworth to guard chant. He is still one of the top TACKLES in the game.
    "This game isn't worth it. The National Football League isn't worth it. There's golf to be played and tennis to be served up and other things to be done out there besides worryin' about a friggin' football game."----The prophet Sam Wyche

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Tigre View Post
    Oh enough of this. People here were bellyaching in 2015 when they supposedly were one of the top lines around. The same people will bellyache regardless of what they do.

    And sorry, but lol @ this annual Whitworth to guard chant. He is still one of the top TACKLES in the game.
    He moved to guard at the end of last year so that Cedric could play LT and Fisher could play RT. It's not an imaginary thing.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    He moved to guard at the end of last year so that Cedric could play LT and Fisher could play RT. It's not an imaginary thing.
    Yes Lew, you are correct. He also moved to LG a few years back when Boling was hurt--and actually did a great job. There is no question he can do it. However my statement stands: why would want your best asset at a key position to play a less key position?
    "This game isn't worth it. The National Football League isn't worth it. There's golf to be played and tennis to be served up and other things to be done out there besides worryin' about a friggin' football game."----The prophet Sam Wyche

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Tigre View Post
    Yes Lew, you are correct. He also moved to LG a few years back when Boling was hurt--and actually did a great job. There is no question he can do it. However my statement stands: why would want your best asset at a key position to play a less key position?
    Because like even Whit has been quoted as saying, you do what it takes to get your 5 best lineman on the field.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Because like even Whit has been quoted as saying, you do what it takes to get your 5 best lineman on the field.
    If that is the case then they need to sign both Whit and Zietler, because they were our 2 best last season.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  14. #14
    for 1 game and ced wasnt very good

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Stryker57 View Post
    for 1 game and ced wasnt very good
    Sorry but he isn't going to get any better sitting on the bench. They invested a first round choice in him and he needs the chance to prove himself and get better.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Sorry but he isn't going to get any better sitting on the bench. They invested a first round choice in him and he needs the chance to prove himself and get better.
    like they gave him at RT for 5-6 games and he didnt get better he got run over. heres an idea rather then wasting valuable plays during the regular season let the guy earn it in preseason. if he cant stay healthy in preseaon then dont waste the other 52 players regular season waiting for him to learn just because he is a 1st round pick. how many games did we lose by less then 3 points? how many times in drives did he have mistakes that cost 1st downs and field position.

  17. #17
    Well LaFell is back in the fold. Hobs is reporting a 2 year deal.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Stryker57 View Post
    like they gave him at RT for 5-6 games and he didnt get better he got run over. heres an idea rather then wasting valuable plays during the regular season let the guy earn it in preseason. if he cant stay healthy in preseaon then dont waste the other 52 players regular season waiting for him to learn just because he is a 1st round pick. how many games did we lose by less then 3 points? how many times in drives did he have mistakes that cost 1st downs and field position.
    Earn it in Preseason? Come on man... everyone knows preseason is a joke. You don't learn to get better against top NFL competition unless you are playing against it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewdog View Post
    Earn it in Preseason? Come on man... everyone knows preseason is a joke. You don't learn to get better against top NFL competition unless you are playing against it.
    well you cant learn anything if you cant even play preseason can ya? well the LT job has been handed to him just like RT was last year.

  20. #20
    spicoli's Avatar
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    I really don't see any possible way that they can sign Whit and then turn around and sign Zeitler for $12mil/year.....that's just crazy money to be paying a RG no matter how good he might be.

    if we lose Zeitler I'm sure the first words out of everyones mouth will be how cheap MB is, but I guarantee you that the Patriots wouldn't do that kind of a deal either.....just throwing that out there.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    I really don't see any possible way that they can sign Whit and then turn around and sign Zeitler for $12mil/year.....that's just crazy money to be paying a RG no matter how good he might be.

    if we lose Zeitler I'm sure the first words out of everyones mouth will be how cheap MB is, but I guarantee you that the Patriots wouldn't do that kind of a deal either.....just throwing that out there.

    But the Patriots are winners and we are not. I agree that ANY team paying $12M per year for a guard is crazy and I would hope we at least offer a fair deal for a very good guard. If for no other reason then we keep saying ' we sign our own'. He is young with nice updide that we drafted so we should at least stay in the negotiating game like we did with Marvin Jones.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  22. #22
    The best way to fix the o-line, fire Alexander and hire a real line coach

  23. #23
    No team will pay Zeitler that kind of money but I sure he will get $6-$7M per year from some team. And if that is the case, we should sign him for that money.

    Who is the top paid guard in the league? Anyone know.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  24. #24
    Here are the guard numbers, i stand corrected eon the values:

    http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/guard/

    Interesting that the Steelers are paying DeCastro $10M per year.

    We are paying Boling $5.2? If we let Zetler walk after resigning Boling for that amount..ugg..another Livings vs Mathis situation.

    One could make the argument that Zeitler is our best OL if you factor in age, performance and upside. In that regard, we should make all efforts to re-sign him.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  25. #25
    I can't wait for us to let Zietler go but re-sign Peko. At least then I can write the season off before it starts.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by I_C_DeadPeople View Post
    I can't wait for us to let Zietler go but re-sign Peko. At least then I can write the season off before it starts.
    Supposedly the Vikings and some other teams are after Peko.

  27. #27
    Sith Lord ralphmtsu's Avatar
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    Our OL now sucks donkey dick
    Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side!

  28. #28
    spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphmtsu View Post
    Our OL now sucks donkey dick
    how's that taste btw?
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  29. #29
    Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude

    preseason at least allows a player to practice his position in a live situation where he can make mistakes and learn from them without costing the team victories..
    you know like he cant handle a simple Defensive maneuver called the bull rush, that to me seems like something to learn before game 1 of the season.
    also allows him to start conditioning his body before game 1, and its the main source of live hitting is allowed since its not allowed as much on the practice field as much anymore.

    and yes it is used as a measuring stick, alot of players get cut if they suck. in fact its a better measuring stick then how much they are paid and what round they were drafted.

  30. #30
    Sith Lord ralphmtsu's Avatar
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    All I know is this, Andre Smith would have played better than the 3-headed monster at RT last year. Bengals screwed the pooch once again by being cheap asses with Whit. And of course der fuehrer of disinformation is at his best saying we have only $3 million left to sign anyone b/c $16 million is tied up in LaFell and Dre. That is such bull-shit. Once again, Mike is at his cheap ass ways by not wanting to risk dead money in future years. What the hell, the cap is going up $10 million per year. You can afford to have some dead money. I'm also so sick of this shit of oh well, we will get a 3 and 5 for Whit and Zietler in 2018. Guess what? 2018 players can't play now. Finally, I'm also sick of this attitude that we will only sign cut players instead of restricted free agents b/c we like getting compensatory picks. Once again, those compensatory picks are not players now. We need players NOW. OL is in shambles b/c Mike is a cheap ass and unwilling to pay or get creative. I know success puts you into these situations, but sometimes you have to take risks and deal with potential dead money. We will be bottom feeders especially since the OL will be as about as bad as when Klingler was QB or Blake or Kitna.
    Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side!

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphmtsu View Post
    All I know is this, Andre Smith would have played better than the 3-headed monster at RT last year. Bengals screwed the pooch once again by being cheap asses with Whit. And of course der fuehrer of disinformation is at his best saying we have only $3 million left to sign anyone b/c $16 million is tied up in LaFell and Dre. That is such bull-shit. Once again, Mike is at his cheap ass ways by not wanting to risk dead money in future years. What the hell, the cap is going up $10 million per year. You can afford to have some dead money. I'm also so sick of this shit of oh well, we will get a 3 and 5 for Whit and Zietler in 2018. Guess what? 2018 players can't play now. Finally, I'm also sick of this attitude that we will only sign cut players instead of restricted free agents b/c we like getting compensatory picks. Once again, those compensatory picks are not players now. We need players NOW. OL is in shambles b/c Mike is a cheap ass and unwilling to pay or get creative. I know success puts you into these situations, but sometimes you have to take risks and deal with potential dead money. We will be bottom feeders especially since the OL will be as about as bad as when Klingler was QB or Blake or Kitna.
    I agree completely. Championship window has closed and we're heading into some lean years again.

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphmtsu View Post
    All I know is this, Andre Smith would have played better than the 3-headed monster at RT last year. Bengals screwed the pooch once again by being cheap asses with Whit. And of course der fuehrer of disinformation is at his best saying we have only $3 million left to sign anyone b/c $16 million is tied up in LaFell and Dre. That is such bull-shit. Once again, Mike is at his cheap ass ways by not wanting to risk dead money in future years. What the hell, the cap is going up $10 million per year. You can afford to have some dead money. I'm also so sick of this shit of oh well, we will get a 3 and 5 for Whit and Zietler in 2018. Guess what? 2018 players can't play now. Finally, I'm also sick of this attitude that we will only sign cut players instead of restricted free agents b/c we like getting compensatory picks. Once again, those compensatory picks are not players now. We need players NOW. OL is in shambles b/c Mike is a cheap ass and unwilling to pay or get creative. I know success puts you into these situations, but sometimes you have to take risks and deal with potential dead money. We will be bottom feeders especially since the OL will be as about as bad as when Klingler was QB or Blake or Kitna.
    Agree 100% and I will add insult to injury - if you want to be a draft and develop team then you have to invest in far better coaching so that MORE of the younger guys get on the field faster. We 'try and keep our own' but we take too long to deternmine if they are worth keeping. We keep slugs like Hunt and re-sign slugs like Peko and Rey M and then let go the best young OL we drafted. And of course as pointed out above, we are always $10M below the cap to protect against injury AND we never defer monies. This structure has zero chance of success.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  33. #33
    Lots of people want to totally get rid of the preseason, and here we have people that think that playing in the preseason is the measruing stick as to whether a FIRST round draft pick should get to play. This is quite fu cking hilarious.

  34. #34
    Hobson's hogwash every year about how little cap room we have is infuriating. Given overthecap.com's numbers, if he's right that we only have 18 mil to spend then signing rookies, injury pad, etc, should cost about 22 million. I doubt it. There are ten teams with less than 22 million in cap space. And we have the 12 highest amount of cap room.

    Of course, management isn't going to want its own website from talking about how rich we are in cap space for leverage reasons in negotiations, so they probably feed him some low figures. And he's been wrong before. We signed Michael Johnson when he thought we had about 8 bucks left to spend.

    Or, we plan to to roll a bunch over into next year to gear up for negotiations with Burfict, Hill, Eifert. But if so that's ridiculous. We can easily let Hill walk. Eifert is such an injury question mark that it's unlikely we'll negotiate with him until after this season anyway. And Burfict is too much of an injury and suspension risk to negotiate with him now.

  35. #35
    So, let me see here...... last season absolutely proved the necessity of a cohesive, talented O-line. Dallas and Atlanta virtually mowed their way through the season due to their offensive fronts.

    So, what do the Bengals do? They let their best two linemen leave without any sign of concern or urgency. This is the kind of crap that makes me HATE this franchise! We all know who is behind these maneuverings, don't we? And at the rate that the Stains are going, they are going to eat our lunch twice a year from now until the foreseeable future, and put us in the AFC North cellar where we absolutely belong. Until the clueless, miserly, football DNA deficient, curmudgeon of an owner leaves this mortal plane, we will forever be saddled with a team whose only goal is to fill the stadium eight times a year. Man, do I feel used.

  36. #36
    Wow, what drama. And all because of the loss of a soon to be 36-year old tackle and (until the end of the season) a seldom-mentioned or criticized often guard. To be sure, they are still good players, and replacement will be challenging..but the way you folks go on and on, it's like you crave living in 1993 again.

    Players come and go. It happens to every franchise. Welcome to the business world of the NFL. It is also a world full of talented offensive linemen--and I will lol @ anyone who truly believe Andrew Whitworth and Kevin Zeitler are the alpha and omega of these positions.

    It is just time to find new linemen--they may already be on the roster, they may soon be--you don't know. But enough of the suicide notes, criminy.
    "This game isn't worth it. The National Football League isn't worth it. There's golf to be played and tennis to be served up and other things to be done out there besides worryin' about a friggin' football game."----The prophet Sam Wyche

  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Tigre View Post
    Wow, what drama. And all because of the loss of a soon to be 36-year old tackle and (until the end of the season) a seldom-mentioned or criticized often guard. To be sure, they are still good players, and replacement will be challenging..but the way you folks go on and on, it's like you crave living in 1993 again.

    Players come and go. It happens to every franchise. Welcome to the business world of the NFL. It is also a world full of talented offensive linemen--and I will lol @ anyone who truly believe Andrew Whitworth and Kevin Zeitler are the alpha and omega of these positions.

    It is just time to find new linemen--they may already be on the roster, they may soon be--you don't know. But enough of the suicide notes, criminy.
    Go ahead and lol away, but it really is that bad. Sure we can replace Zeitler - I expected that - but there aren't 32 guys on the planet that can play LT in the NFL. That's a fact. We had one of the best. Ced O can't do it, he's shown that. There's nobody left on the FA market, or at least nobody we will sign. And the draft is weak this year for OT. Maybe mediocre for interior guys.

    And it's not so much Whit and Z as it is the yearly ineptitude of our front office. The draft, develop and retain philosophy without the retain part. I've never been a believer in high spending in free agency and I've never been prone to over reaction... in fact on this board I've often been more likely to defend our front office's actions. But we won 6 games last year because of the dumb way we handled free agency. And now we're doing even worse.

  38. #38
    spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bengali View Post
    The draft, develop and retain philosophy without the retain part.
    but you can't put that ALL on the team (any team) because all they can do is make the offers, they can't hold a gun to the guys head and make him sign it.

    all indications are (and by indications I mean Dave Lapham inside info), the team tried to get Zeitler signed when the Steelers locked up DeCastro only to be turned down simply because he thought he could play out his contract and then get more on the open market....it was a gamble, but one that paid off for him in the end....how is that on the Bengals?
    Last edited by spicoli; 03-18-2017 at 11:50 AM.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    but you can't put that ALL on the team because all they can do is make the offers, they can't hold a gun to the guys head and make him sign it.

    all indications are (and by indications I mean Dave Lapham inside info), the team tried to get Zeitler signed when the Steelers locked up DeCastro only to be turned down simply because he thought he could play out his contract and then get more on the open market....it was a gamble, but one that paid off for him in the end....how is that on the Bengals?
    True enough but if the Bengals tried to sign Zietler for say $8M per year why have they not now spent that money on a replacement? I think most here understand all teams have a cap and you will lose good players but you can also sign good players from other teams. We handcuff ourselves by (a) not spending TO the cap and (b) not using the ability to push cap monies forward. In this model, we will continually lose more good players and never make a push forward.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  40. #40
    spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_C_DeadPeople View Post
    True enough but if the Bengals tried to sign Zietler for say $8M per year why have they not now spent that money on a replacement?
    like who though? I've yet to see anyone out there that fits the criteria....all I've seen are a bunch of guys that fit the mold of the players we already have here waiting their turn.

    like I said in an earlier post, offer these guys a fair deal to get them locked up before they can hit FA and if they reject it, trade them off....that's really the only way a team can get any real assurances.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

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