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Thread: OL Ramblings

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by bengalfreak View Post
    If he can't get it done in preseason, he's certainly not going to stand up to the regular season talent. Ogbuehi started half the season at RT and couldn't keep Eric Winston on the bench. You think he's going to succeed at LT?

    By letting both Zeitler and Whitworth go, the Bengals have just guaranteed themselves a second consecutive losing season.
    LT and RT are NOT the same position. Cedric has the type of skill set to be a LT NOT a RT. If you don't already know that, then you don't watch enough NFL.

  2. #42
    Administrator Super Cat's Avatar
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    This will be a year of running the ball because you don't have a line that has played together. Much like Dalton's first year. We can go to the playoffs but it won't be pretty.

  3. #43
    Welp Winston resigned, that's all of the salary cap gone. See you next year!

  4. #44
    spicoli's Avatar
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    we were only an injury away from these guys having to play anyhow so what's the difference?

    throw them out there and see what happens, maybe they'll surprise us.

    no reason to just automatically assume it can't possibly work out, at least give 'em a chance for crying out loud.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    we were only an injury away from these guys having to play anyhow so what's the difference?

    throw them out there and see what happens, maybe they'll surprise us.

    no reason to just automatically assume it can't possibly work out, at least give 'em a chance for crying out loud.
    Westerman was seen as a value pick for the Bengals who many thought should have been a third rounder or even late second rounder. I want to see what he can do.

    5. OG Christian Westerman, Arizona Wildcats
    Christian WestermanWesterman is probably one of the best prospects that no one is talking about right now, boasting the size, athleticism, and power to play in any scheme. Westerman has one of the better, more evenly distributed frames amongst the 2016 offensive line group, and moves through his zone steps with impressive fluidity. Few prospects in the draft can match Westerman’s technical prowess, both in pass protection and in the run game.

    http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2016/0...line-rankings/

    DRAFT PROJECTION Rounds 2 or 3
    NFL COMPARISON Alex Mack
    BOTTOM LINE Quick-#twitch, athletic guard who comes from a football family and has been working on his strength and athleticism from a young age. Offensive line coaches will appreciate Westerman's technical savvy and zone scheme teams will covet his fluidity and blocking ability on the move. A move to center is not out of the question thanks to his body type and quickness and his draft stock may be helped by a potential ability to offer roster depth at several offensive line positions.

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profil...man?id=2555131

    Analysis
    Westerman is an outstanding athlete with rare raw power, he just needs to get better at using it. A lower pad level and better hand placement in the run game could turn Westerman into a destroyer at the next level, but his technique as a whole is generally very sound. The Arizona State guard thrives in space, hitting targets on the move with regularity and showing impressive patience to mirror second-level defenders rather than lunge at his mark. In pass protection the dude is a brick wall, shutting down power rushers with his stout punch and immovable anchor. Can he keep his feet active enough to mirror quicker interior defensive lineman in the NFL, especially in sub-packages? All the tools, smarts and technique are there for Westerman to thrive in zone or gap schemes early on in his career, potentially at every offensive line position if a team wants to eventually see him at center. I’ve long considered Westerman one of the more underrated and under-appreciated prospects in the 2016 class, and teams would be wise to nab him by the end of the second round come April 29.

    Grade: 2nd Round

    http://draftwire.usatoday.com/2016/0...ian-westerman/


    The Bengals got him in the 5th round. Let's see what he can do.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphmtsu View Post
    All I know is this, Andre Smith would have played better than the 3-headed monster at RT last year. Bengals screwed the pooch once again by being cheap asses with Whit. And of course der fuehrer of disinformation is at his best saying we have only $3 million left to sign anyone b/c $16 million is tied up in LaFell and Dre. That is such bull-shit. Once again, Mike is at his cheap ass ways by not wanting to risk dead money in future years. What the hell, the cap is going up $10 million per year. You can afford to have some dead money. I'm also so sick of this shit of oh well, we will get a 3 and 5 for Whit and Zietler in 2018. Guess what? 2018 players can't play now. Finally, I'm also sick of this attitude that we will only sign cut players instead of restricted free agents b/c we like getting compensatory picks. Once again, those compensatory picks are not players now. We need players NOW. OL is in shambles b/c Mike is a cheap ass and unwilling to pay or get creative. I know success puts you into these situations, but sometimes you have to take risks and deal with potential dead money. We will be bottom feeders especially since the OL will be as about as bad as when Klingler was QB or Blake or Kitna.
    Agree 100% and I will add insult to injury - if you want to be a draft and develop team then you have to invest in far better coaching so that MORE of the younger guys get on the field faster. We 'try and keep our own' but we take too long to deternmine if they are worth keeping. We keep slugs like Hunt and re-sign slugs like Peko and Rey M and then let go the best young OL we drafted. And of course as pointed out above, we are always $10M below the cap to protect against injury AND we never defer monies. This structure has zero chance of success.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Cat View Post
    This will be a year of running the ball because you don't have a line that has played together. Much like Dalton's first year. We can go to the playoffs but it won't be pretty.

    How does one run the ball with a young and crappy OL?
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    we were only an injury away from these guys having to play anyhow so what's the difference?

    throw them out there and see what happens, maybe they'll surprise us.

    no reason to just automatically assume it can't possibly work out, at least give 'em a chance for crying out loud.
    well the OL was very sub par so its either they sucked so bad they couldnt beat out bad players OR they OL was so bad that it cant be worse. and they played Boling with a bad shoulder cause they didnt trust the back ups last year. so they werent an injury away last year....

  9. #49
    If the O-line sucks this year then it'll be because we didn't draft/develop their replacements very well. Not because we didn't break the bank keeping them. It's a salary cap league. You can't just write checks to overcome poor drafting.

    Before anyone starts moaning about this O-line next year, remember last yr. It wasn't that great. Let's be careful not to overrate what we saw in 2016

  10. #50
    TD Bengals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Ray View Post
    If the O-line sucks this year then it'll be because we didn't draft/develop their replacements very well. Not because we didn't break the bank keeping them. It's a salary cap league. You can't just write checks to overcome poor drafting.

    Before anyone starts moaning about this O-line next year, remember last yr. It wasn't that great. Let's be careful not to overrate what we saw in 2016
    Problem is that the only good part of the OL in 2016 were the two players that left. I haven't written off Ogbuehi yet, but he needs to improve dramatically. Fisher hasn't exactly lived up to his draft position yet either. I have zero confidence in Bodine, although he did make some improvement last year. TJ Johnson? He's only had one start at guard so far and played less than 100 snaps in 2016, so who the hell knows? Boling regressed in 2016. Hopefully he can turn things around.

  11. #51
    Lew nailed it: Westerman. This guy can play. Period.

    How about a this idea for the Second Round: Dan Feeney of Indiana? A lifelong RIGHT guard, who possesses every attribute a guard can have. Having watched a lot of IU football over the years, I tell you: this guy has the goods.

    Maybe Ced doesn't ever play LT. Don't forget JAKE Fisher--a natural LT on Oregon's best offenses. Don't think he has seen more than a few speed rushers in the PAC 12? Maybe Ced--who has been bulking up and working hard this offseason at specialty workout sites in SoCal--lol's @ all of you. The Cincinnati Bengals were not the only team to see an NFL LT during the draft two years ago. Look it up. For all you know, a younger/quicker/stronger offensive line is only a TC away.

    But if you wish to wallow in the 90's, feel free.
    Last edited by Le Tigre; 03-11-2017 at 01:01 AM.
    "This game isn't worth it. The National Football League isn't worth it. There's golf to be played and tennis to be served up and other things to be done out there besides worryin' about a friggin' football game."----The prophet Sam Wyche

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Tigre View Post
    Lew nailed it: Westerman. This guy can play. Period.

    How about a this idea for the Second Round: Dan Feeney of Indiana? A lifelong RIGHT guard, who possesses every attribute a guard can have. Having watched a lot of IU football over the years, I tell you: this guy has the goods.

    Maybe Ced doesn't ever play LT. Don't forget Eric Fisher--a natural LT on Oregon's best offenses. Don't think he has seen more than a few speed rushers in the PAC 12? Maybe Ced--who has been bulking up and working hard this offseason at specialty workout sites in SoCal--lol's @ all of you. The Cincinnati Bengals were not the only team to see an NFL LT during the draft two years ago. Look it up. For all you know, a younger/quicker/stronger offensive line is only a TC away.

    But if you wish to wallow in the 90's, feel free.
    hey if Ced can make it through this TC that would be awesome. of course it would be his 1st TC so i'll be pretty excited for him too.

    and ignore the 90's all you want but those who ignore history will be more likely to repeat it.

  13. #53
    TD Bengals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Tigre View Post
    Don't forget Eric Fisher
    If only we had Eric Fisher.

  14. #54
    Sorry...had Winston on my mind. Amendment made.
    "This game isn't worth it. The National Football League isn't worth it. There's golf to be played and tennis to be served up and other things to be done out there besides worryin' about a friggin' football game."----The prophet Sam Wyche

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by TD Bengals View Post
    If only we had Eric Fisher.
    I wouldn't so far as to say Eric Fisher is a bust but he certainly has not lived up to pre draft hype. I don't think we need more of that around here...

  16. #56
    Sith Lord ralphmtsu's Avatar
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    If you ask KC fans, they will tell you Fisher is a bust.
    Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side!

  17. #57
    If we do not, as an organization, value the guard position as highly as others (and many teams if not most do this) then why waste a 1st round pick on a guard like we did with Zietler? Use the higher picks for the positions you value more and where you will pay the money to on the second contract. CB is a good example of that. Obviously Zietler was a great addition, plug and play but if he is elite you will never re-sign him because of the position he plays.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  18. #58
    spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I_C_DeadPeople View Post
    If we do not, as an organization, value the guard position as highly as others (and many teams if not most do this) then why waste a 1st round pick on a guard like we did with Zietler? Use the higher picks for the positions you value more and where you will pay the money to on the second contract. CB is a good example of that. Obviously Zietler was a great addition, plug and play but if he is elite you will never re-sign him because of the position he plays.
    once a guy hits the open market, and this is true with any team, he's pretty much as good as gone.....you can throw all the money in the world at him early but if he's determined to test market in order to maximize his value there's really not a whole lot a team can do.

    they tried like hell to get Zeitler locked up long term several times according to Lap but he was determined to hit the market....it is what it is.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  19. #59
    Let's face it, the Bengals draft for 4-5 year rookie contracts. They may have some big money guys they re-up after the rookie contracts, like Dalton, Green, Gio... but a lot of the time they try to maximize the value of play to the value of the contract to lower the risk factor of failure. In there eyes it is much better to have a rookie bust that is making a couple million a year, then have a veteran bust that is making $5 million per year.

  20. #60
    Everyone drafts for 3-4 year rookie contracts. The Bengals then extend these rookie contracts for a year by making sure that young players play in less than 6 games in a season. Then they bring in 2nd and 3rd tier FAs and play them as backups instead of these rookies. The coaches don't know whether they can play despite having them in their organization for 3-4 years.
    They treat all their high OL draft picks as cheap free agents. They expect that they can play early, and they only re-sign them if they are still cheap free agents. It's like they are playing moneyball and don't know that the NFL has a salary cap.

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by puddycat View Post
    They treat all their high OL draft picks as cheap free agents. They expect that they can play early, and they only re-sign them if they are still cheap free agents.
    not trying to get in the way of a good rant here but you are aware that on several occasions Andrew Whitworth was given extensions here that made him one of the highest paid LT's in the game, right?

    not just that but they tried to make Zeitler one of the highest paid G's in the league last year only to be turned down.

    all a team can do is try to get these guys to extend before they hit FA...if the player doesn't want to do that however, the team is pretty much screwed because once a guy hits the open market he very rarely re-signs with his original team.

    anyone paid attention to what's been going on in GB? that team can't get anybody re-signed and they're losing guys left and right because of it.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  22. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    not trying to get in the way of a good rant here but you are aware that on several occasions Andrew Whitworth was given extensions here that made him one of the highest paid LT's in the game, right? ... not just that but they tried to make Zeitler one of the highest paid G's in the league last year only to be turned down.
    By highest paid you mean in the 6-10 range for LTs. Except last year when they drafted an LT and gave him a 1 yr. deal that made him the 13th highest paid. To keep him they offered a one year deal that would have made him the 14th highest paid. Sounds like a hometown discount and no security. Can't even find an offer made to Zeitler before the season.

  23. #63
    spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puddycat View Post
    By highest paid you mean in the 6-10 range for LTs. Except last year when they drafted an LT and gave him a 1 yr. deal that made him the 13th highest paid. To keep him they offered a one year deal that would have made him the 14th highest paid. .
    and this year they offered him $11mil on a one year deal to try and keep him, which is actually a pretty damn fair offer for a 35 year old player IMO.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  24. #64
    I think the NFL has hurt itself by greatly lowering the salaries of these rookie contracts.

    I think a more solid initial contract would inspire loyalty and not so much desperation to search for the highest bidder. So what we have now are players who stick around for the initial crappy contract then skate as soon as the real money comes around. They rightfully are looking out for themselves, because the team hasn't given them a reason to be loyal.
    The Bengals have abused their fans so much over the years, they might as well hold an annual Punch Your Customers In the Face Day.

  25. #65
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    honestly, we should just go the way of NE.....try to extend a guy early at a fair price for both sides and if he doesn't wanna take the deal, trade him.

    seems to be the only way a team can get any assurances really.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  26. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    honestly, we should just go the way of NE.....
    That looks and sounds funny. We all know that is what we should do, but old tree sloth Mikey can't work at that speed, his bald head would explode.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  27. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    and this year they offered him $11mil on a one year deal to try and keep him, which is actually a pretty damn fair offer for a 35 year old player IMO.
    and the rams offered him a fairer deal for 2 + years to a player still holding up as a top LT . if you remember as his last contract was coming to the last year they didnt even want to talk extending him or a new contract. if Ced wouldnt have had such a poor year they wouldnt of offered him anything this year. not much loyalty from the front office gets you no hometown discount. they did the same with willie kept Andrews over him and he was gone in a year.

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stryker57 View Post
    and the rams offered him a fairer deal for 2 + years to a player still holding up as a top LT . if you remember as his last contract was coming to the last year they didnt even want to talk extending him or a new contract. if Ced wouldnt have had such a poor year they wouldnt of offered him anything this year. not much loyalty from the front office gets you no hometown discount. they did the same with willie kept Andrews over him and he was gone in a year.

    that really wasn't the point though, I simply responded to an opinion that the Bengals don't put value on the OL when clearly that's not the case since they consistently try to get these guys locked up before they hit FA....just because they didn't offer up the exact same deal LA did, doesn't in any way mean that they didn't value him.

    and honestly, I'm not sure Whit would have taken the deal even if the Bengals did match....it really seems to me that he was just ready to see what else is out there.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  29. #69
    I can't believe anyone pays money to watch these clowns.
    "The History of the National Football League proves that most games are won in the last two minutes of the first half or the second half." -- Vince Lombardi.

    "You're either incredibly prepared, or incredibly physically talented."

  30. #70
    spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlazerBenner View Post
    I can't believe anyone pays money to watch these clowns.
    but they do.....consistently.

    that is exactly the reason we have our MB.

    lol
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  31. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    but they do.....consistently.

    that is exactly the reason we have our MB.

    lol
    Mikey rides the coattails of the other owners. They do all the heavy lifting. He just cashes in. And the fans suffer years and decades of malaise.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  32. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by I_C_DeadPeople View Post
    Mikey rides the coattails of the other owners. They do all the heavy lifting. He just cashes in. And the fans suffer years and decades of malaise.
    Not sure I agree with this. I am no MB lover, but, have to give credit where credit do. He lead the way in the new Players's Union Contract.

  33. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by NCStripes View Post
    Not sure I agree with this. I am no MB lover, but, have to give credit where credit do. He lead the way in the new Players's Union Contract.
    He led the way that made him more money. The cap rollover provisions were brilliant - money in his pocket year after year. He is useful to the owners in those negotiations because never see the long term ramifications. But he does nothing from a franchise standpoint to add value to the league.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  34. #74
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    Bengals keep T.J. Johnson with two-year deal

    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  35. #75
    That's a relief, really thought we were going to lose that guy..lol. Totally changed the Free Agency scorecard...
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  36. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by I_C_DeadPeople View Post
    He led the way that made him more money. The cap rollover provisions were brilliant - money in his pocket year after year. He is useful to the owners in those negotiations because never see the long term ramifications. But he does nothing from a franchise standpoint to add value to the league.
    But the point is he lead the way for the other owners. He did not ride their coattails - can't have it both ways

  37. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by NCStripes View Post
    But the point is he lead the way for the other owners. He did not ride their coattails - can't have it both ways
    I can actually. The other owners drive the REVENUE of the league up that he benefits from. He has saved them all money on the salary cap side. He is basically their nerd accountant. He is prudent financially (obviously) but does nothing to create revenue like the other owners.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

  38. #78
    You always make it sound like all the "owners" are these super smart/innovative/rich leviathans that the poor Bengals are bound to like galley slaves.

    You never once ever mention (although all rich) nincompoops like Mark Davis, Zygi Wilf, Jed York, Stephen Ross, Dean Spanos, Stan Kroenke, the entire Ford family and Jimmy Haslam. Throw in even Dan Snyder, Bill Bidwell, and Jerry Jones too.

    Yes, let's take our leads from this group.

    Oh, here we go: please say something about playoff games, how much money they spend, and how they "try".
    "This game isn't worth it. The National Football League isn't worth it. There's golf to be played and tennis to be served up and other things to be done out there besides worryin' about a friggin' football game."----The prophet Sam Wyche

  39. #79
    spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bengali View Post
    The draft, develop and retain philosophy without the retain part.
    but you can't put that ALL on the team (any team) because all they can do is make the offers, they can't hold a gun to the guys head and make him sign it.

    all indications are (and by indications I mean Dave Lapham inside info), the team tried to get Zeitler signed when the Steelers locked up DeCastro only to be turned down simply because he thought he could play out his contract and then get more on the open market....it was a gamble, but one that paid off for him in the end....how is that on the Bengals?
    Last edited by spicoli; 03-18-2017 at 11:50 AM.
    “We are not going in circles, we are going upwards. The path is a spiral; we have already climbed many steps.” --Hermann Hesse, Siddhartha

  40. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by spicoli View Post
    but you can't put that ALL on the team because all they can do is make the offers, they can't hold a gun to the guys head and make him sign it.

    all indications are (and by indications I mean Dave Lapham inside info), the team tried to get Zeitler signed when the Steelers locked up DeCastro only to be turned down simply because he thought he could play out his contract and then get more on the open market....it was a gamble, but one that paid off for him in the end....how is that on the Bengals?
    True enough but if the Bengals tried to sign Zietler for say $8M per year why have they not now spent that money on a replacement? I think most here understand all teams have a cap and you will lose good players but you can also sign good players from other teams. We handcuff ourselves by (a) not spending TO the cap and (b) not using the ability to push cap monies forward. In this model, we will continually lose more good players and never make a push forward.
    Marvin Lewis - the Clapping Clown.

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